Hundreds of people stand atop Mt. Everest each year. But far fewer summit the Seven Second Summits, the second-highest peaks on each continent that push climbers to their limits.
Daniel Prudek/Business Insider
When climbing huge mountains, height and difficulty don't always go hand in hand, mountaineers say.
Mt. Everest may be the world's tallest peak, but it's easier to summit than other smaller mountains, like the SevenSecondSummits.
Three professional mountaineers explain why these shorter peaks are so challenging, and why Mt. Everest is easier to climb than ever before.
Just because Mt. Everest is the world's tallest peak, that doesn't mean it's the most difficult to climb, according to three professional mountaineers.
In fact, one expert even described Everest as a "fun" and "playful" climb compared to other peaks she's summited around the world.
Mountaineers generally agree that the highest peaks on each of the seven continents — aka the Seven Summits, which include Everest, Denali, and Kilimanjaro — are easier to climb than the second highest peaks on each continent: the Seven Second Summits.
The three mountaineers shared why Everest isn't the hardest and which peaks they found most challenging in their years of climbing.
Climbing the Seven Second Summits
Jenn Drummond ascending K2, which she summited in August, 2022.
Jenn Drummond
Don't let the name fool you — when it comes to difficulty, there's nothing secondary about the Seven Second Summits.
Only two people have successfully climbed all seven. Jenn Drummond, a retired businesswoman and mom of seven turned professional mountaineer, is one of them.
In 2023, she became the first woman to accomplish this climbing feat and said each one came with its own harrowing challenges.
Part of what makes these peaks so difficult is that they're more remote and not as commercialized as the seven highest summits, which makes getting to them its own challenge, Drummond told Business Insider.
Drummond holds an American flag on the top of Mt. Logan, which was her most difficult climb out of all the Seven Second Summits.
Jenn Drummond
Mt. Everest attracts hundreds of climbers each year, and is surrounded by a booming tourism industry. The spring 2023 climbing season alone generated $5.08 million in revenue for the Nepal government, the Kathmandu Post reported. That revenue helps fund people who mark trails, set up ropes, and establish camps before mountaineers even arrive at base camp.
"If I'm climbing Everest, I don't have to make decisions — if I go left or right. I just follow a rope that somebody else has set for me," she said, adding that it all makes Mt. Everest a "fun" and "playful" climb compared to the Seven Second Summits.
"When I'm climbing Mt. Logan, or I'm doing Mt. Tyree, there's no set route," Drummond said. That added mental labor significantly increases both exertion and risk. Plus, "if something goes wrong, it's only you guys there to fix it," she said.
Drummond during her ascent of Mt. Logan. This climb involves more skiing than hiking, she said.
Jenn Drummond
And for the most part, they're more technically difficult to climb. Unlike the seven highest summits, some of the Seven Second Summits involve skiing and rock climbing in addition to hiking. "You're training for a variety of different skill sets," Drummond said.
Out of all the Seven Second summits, Mt. Logan was the hardest for Drummond. It's remote, there's no trail to follow, and mountaineers do most of the climb on skis, she said. She and her team had to chart their own route, constantly test the ground to make sure the snow wouldn't give way underfoot, and build igloos around their tents to help them withstand the strong, cold winds.
K2: The Savage Mountain
K2, as seen from Broad Peak at 20,600 ft.
Courtesy of Jake Meyer
If you ask Garrett Madison what the hardest mountain he's climbed is, his answer won't be Mt. Everest, either.
This world-class mountaineer has summited Mt. Everest 14 times, in addition to other massive peaks like K2, Denali, and Mt. Everest's smaller but formidable neighbors, Mt. Lhotse and Mt. Nuptse.
K2 is the hardest mountain he's ever climbed, he said, and other mountaineers agree that although it's secondary to Mt. Everest in height, it's much more challenging.
Garrett Madison snapped this selfie during his 14th Mt. Everest summit expedition this spring.
Photo courtesy of Garrett Madison
"The major differences are that K2 is steeper, it's got more objective danger — rock fall, ice fall, crevasses — and the weather is more unpredictable," Alan Arnette, a Mount Everest summiter and climbing coach who writes an Everest blog, told BI.
But just because Mt. Everest is easier than K2, that doesn't mean that anyone can hike up the world's highest mountain on a whim, Arnette said.
Climbing Mt. Everest is still risky
Just because Mt. Everest isn't the hardest climb doesn't mean anyone can do it.
Jason Maehl/Getty Images
In 2023, a record-breaking 18 climbers died attempting to summit Mt. Everest. Even with a pre-set route, established camps, and highly skilled Sherpas to guide you, summiting this mountain is still incredibly dangerous.
As a Mt. Everest summit coach, Arnette requires that his clients already have experience climbing at least 23,000 foot tall mountains, camping in harsh winter conditions, and have some basic mountaineering knowledge before he agrees to work with them. And even someone with that level of experience might need a year of training to get ready to summit, he said.
Alan Arnette snapped this selfie at camp one on K2 in 2014.
Alan Arnette
But professional mountaineers like Arnette, Drummond, and Madison go searching for even greater challenges, paving the way for others who aspire to reach the same heights. For Drummond, becoming the first woman to climb the Seven Second Summits was deeply meaningful.
"It just shows how far society has come for women to be in these places," she said.
JoAnn Pushkin with her husband during her chemo treatments after she was diagnosed with late-stage breast cancer.
JoAnn Pushkin
JoAnn Pushkin was vigilant about getting breast cancer screening and performing self-exams.
She was diagnosed late because she had "dense breasts," making cancer invisible on her mammograms.
Pushkin became an advocate for raising awareness around breast density.
JoAnn Pushkin did everything she could to spot breast cancer early. She started getting annual mammograms at 40, the recommended age to begin screening. She also followed a healthy diet, regularly exercised, and performed additional self-exams, despite only having one aunt with breast cancer and no other risk factors.
Pushkin was shocked — another mammogram still showed no signs of a tumor. A technician explained that Pushkin had dense breasts, which makes tumors harder to spot on mammograms.
Pushkin was floored, especially when she learned that around 40% of women have dense breasts.
"I go on for the ultrasound and there it is, clear as a bell," Pushkin, now 64, told Business Insider. "So on the same day I learned I had breast cancer, I learned I had dense breasts, and I learned it had been missed because I had dense breasts."
Her late diagnosis meant Pushkin needed a double mastectomy, seven surgeries, and eight rounds of chemotherapy. Five years later, the cancer came back and she needed 30 rounds of radiation.
Even large tumors are hard to spot in some mammograms
A side-by-side mammogram image of cancer in a "not dense" breast and a "dense" breast.
DenseBreast-info
"Dense" breasts have more glands and fibrous tissue, which makes them appear different on mammograms. Because dense tissue and cancer both appear white on mammograms, the cancer can blend right in, going completely unnoticed until the cancer advances, as it did in Pushkin's case.
At first, Pushkin thought she had a rare condition. "I get home and find out 40% of women have dense breasts," she said. She quickly learned that other screening methods, like ultrasounds or MRIs, would have found her cancer much earlier.
Pushkin, now the executive director of the educational resource DenseBreast-info, is still shocked and furious that she was never informed she had dense breasts in the five years she got annual screenings. "I felt betrayed," she said.
These days, she has to be even more vigilant, testing more often and dealing with the side effects of so many treatments. "What could have been an early stage diagnosis with maybe a lumpectomy and back to work the next day wound up being very long drawn out," she said.
This year, new federal regulations to protect women with dense breasts
Pushkin with Katie Couric and US representatives Rosa DeLauro and Brian Fitzpatrick as they introduce the "Find It Early" Act in 2023.
JoAnn Pushkin
Infuriated by how preventable her cancer was, Pushkin set out to raise awareness about breast density.
She started in New York state, where she resides, helping to pass a law that requires doctors to flag high breast density after a mammogram.
In the years since, she has chipped away at regulations nationwide, testifying before the FDA and writing to lawmakers. This year, on September 10, 2024, it will become a federal regulation for healthcare practitioners to inform patients with dense breasts of their cancer risks.
While the new federal requirement is a huge victory, Pushkin can't help but think of the advocates who are no longer around to rejoice with her.
"Some of them were fighting for these laws literally while sitting in chemo chairs, getting infusions while they're fighting for these laws," she said. "When you think about the fact that these 39 state laws were fought for by sick women, it is quite something that these women and their families have paid the price for this," she said.
How to assess your own risk
Women who are at high risk for breast cancer (regardless of breast density) should have a yearly MRI in addition to a mammogram.
You can also talk to your doctor about additional screening methods like MRIs or ultrasounds.
"It's not a one-size-fits-all," Pushkin said. But for women with dense breasts, an annual mammogram should be the first step in getting screened — and probably not be the last.
Marta Kostyuk, 22, beat two challengers and suffered one loss wearing Wilson's $298 "Marta Dress." The garment is inspired by the gown crafted for Kostyuk's November 2023 wedding by Joelle Michaeloff, the brand's vice president of design.
Kostyuk wore the court-suitable homage to her bridal look for the first time at Wimbledon 2024 on Monday when she beat Slovakia's Rebecca Šramková. On Thursday, she defeated Australia's Daria Saville and wore the same look Friday, when America's Madison Keys put an end to her winning streak.
The Wilson dress has a removable sheer overlay that Kostyuk unbuttoned before stepping onto the court.
John Walton/PA Images via Getty Images
In a YouTube clip posted by Wilson on July 1, Kostyuk said both her wedding gown and her tennis dresses were designed to be "light, comfortable, free, feminine" and "beautiful."
Just like Kostyuk's wedding dress, which she wore to tie the knot with her now-husband George Kyzymenko, the tennis dress is sleeveless and semi-backless, with a sloping V-neck and a sheer outer layer.
Kostyuk wanted the dress to be "light" and "feminine."
Daniel Kopatsch/Getty Images
"I want people to see this dress and think, 'Wow, I could actually get married in this dress that she's playing in,'" Kostyuk said.
Kostyuk told Vogue earlier this week that enlisting Michaeloff as her wedding dress designer was a spur-of-the-moment decision.
Michaeloff, who worked for Lululemon before joining iconic tennis brand Wilson in 2020, came up with 12 designs before they landed on a final version: a silk organza dress covered by a removable sheer piece withfloral appliques that Kostyuk would take off for the after-party, according to Vogue.
"I wanted it to be easy and really functional," Michaeloff told Vogue, describing the gown, made out of ever-so-shimmery Italian fabric, as one of the "most technical wedding dresses ever made."
"It has a built-in shelf prop, much like our tennis dresses," she said. "It really hugged and fit her like something she could go and play a match in."
She isn't the only female player playing at Wimbledon in style.
US tennis star Coco Gauff wore a crisp white dress with cut-outs across the waist that some suspect was inspired by a look Serena Williams wore to Wimbledon in 2019, while Naomi Osaka took to the court on July 1 in an asymmetrical ruffled two-piece set designed by Nike.
Representatives for Kostyuk and Wilson did not immediately respond to a request for comment from BI.
Many of Biden's problems stem from the perception that he has, to some degree or another, lost his marbles. Biden is 81 years old and, if he completes another term, would be 86 by the end of his presidency.
There is a move he can take to help turn the tides: Release the Hur tapes.
Until last week's presidential debate — which Biden hopes to counter with a live ABC News interview Friday night — the biggest blow against Biden came from Robert Hur, a special counsel appointed by his own Justice Department.
Hur interviewed him for five hours in October, across two days, for his investigation into Biden holding onto classified documents from his time as vice president.
Hur, in an investigative report concluding that he would not bring any criminal charges, explained that jurors may not be willing to convict the president.
"At trial, Mr. Biden would likely present himself to a jury, as he did during our interview of him, as a sympathetic, well-meaning, elderly man with a poor memory," Hur wrote in his report. "Based on our direct interactions with and observations of him, he is someone for whom many jurors will want to identify reasonable doubt."
In later testimony before Congress, Hur said Biden "himself put his memory squarely at issue." Biden appeared to forget the date that his son Beau Biden died and mixed up the dates of his own vice presidency, according to a transcript of the interview that was made public.
"What I wrote is what I believe the evidence shows, and what I expect jurors would perceive and believe," Hur said in his congressional testimony. "I did not sanitize my explanation. Nor did I disparage the president unfairly."
Biden reacted angrily to the report, insisting in a White House press conference that his "memory is fine." His White House lawyers also wrote letters objecting to the language, writing Hur characterized Biden's memory "in sweeping, quasi-medical terms."
"This is the very definition of a derogatory comment that violates DOJ policy: unsupported personal opinion criticism on uncharged conduct that is outside the Special Counsel's expertise and remit," the lawyers wrote.
There is a very easy way to resolve this debate: Release the audio recording of the interview and let the American people decide for themselves.
In an interview with law enforcement, did Biden appear old and addled? Or, as his lawyers argued, was he lucid with a few understandable lapses for someone trying to recall years-old events?
Biden could prove himself — if he really believes Hur is wrong
Biden himself is holding up the release of the audio, according to White House Press Secretary Karine Jean-Pierre, who told journalists in May that the president asserted executive privilege to keep the recording private at the request of US Attorney General Merrick Garland. (The Justice Department said in a court filing that it made an audio record of the interview, recorded across several files, but not video.)
The fight over the audio has sometimes been cast as a partisan battle. Republicans in the US House of Representatives held Garland in contempt of Congress for refusing a subpoena to hand over the audio, along with other records from Hur's investigation. This month, they filed a lawsuit asking a federal court in Washington, DC, to order the Justice Department to release the material. Judicial Watch, a conservative government watchdog organization, has also sued to obtain the tapes.
A coalition of media organizations — including Business Insider — filed a lawsuit against the Justice Department as well. The department has refused to fulfill Freedom of Information Act requests seeking the interview recordings.
Robert Hur in testimony before the House of Representatives, speaking about his investigation into Joe Biden's retention of classified documents.
Win McNamee/Getty Images
In court, the Justice Department has raised a few defenses. The interview recordings are protected by executive privilege, DOJ lawyers say. Releasing the recordings can have a chilling effect on potential cooperators in other investigations, where people may not be willing to talk to DOJ lawyers out of fear that the recordings could be publicly disseminated, they argue. The audio of Biden's interview could be manipulated by deepfakes in a politically volatile moment, they say.
Biden could short-circuit those concerns by waiving privilege or ordering Garland to publish the audio. The taxpayer-funded interview with a taxpayer-funded subject of the most important public official in the country is clearly something the public should see.
Neither White House representatives nor Bob Bauer, Biden's lawyer representing him in the Hur investigation, responded to Business Insider's requests for comment.
The notion that Biden has any sort of privacy interest in the audio — particularly when the transcript is already public — does not make any sense.
There is "colossal public interest" in the audio, as Charles Tobin, an attorney at Ballard Spahr representing the press coalition, wrote in a court filing.
Hur invoked Biden's mannerisms in his report, referring to his "pauses, hesitations, mannerisms, and intonations" to describe the president as having "diminished faculties in advancing age, and his sympathetic demeanor." It's the audio recording that can help Americans see that for themselves as they evaluate Hur's recording.
"The health of our democracy relies on transparency into and trust in our government," Tobin wrote. "That trust in the Special Counsel's weighty decision is best served through public review of the Recording on which the head prosecutor expressly relied."
Sasha Gaston celebrates her neighbor Charlette's birthday every year since she has no family.
Courtesy of Sasha Gaston
Sasha Gaston is a 28-year-old living in a Tampa apartment complex
She has become "really close" with her 80-year-old neighbor, Charlette, who has no family.
For Charlette's 80th birthday, Sasha took Charlette to a casino to celebrate.
This as-told-to essay is based on a conversation with Sasha Gaston. It has been edited for length and clarity.
Soon after I moved into my Tampa apartment in 2018, I had water coming in through my bedroom window. When I went outside to see what was going on, I found an older woman cleaning off windowsills. It was the first time I met Charlette. She told me she often did little jobs around the apartment complex because the management doesn't do enough.
The next day, she invited me to her house and gave me a cup of ice before pouring tea into it. We sat at her kitchen table and talked for ages. I knew right away she was a wise, welcoming woman. I wanted to be around her more.
We started talking on the phone every day and hanging out
By 2019, I was talking to Charlette on the phone every day, visiting her apartment to drink tea, talk, and watch the news. I took her to the grocery store and on Target runs. We were getting closer and becoming good friends.
She's taught me so many basic tasks, like how to clean an air filter, do chores around the house, and clean and wax a car. She doesn't let her age define her and is always on the go. If either of us ever needs help, we do whatever we can to help.
As we got to know and trust each other more, she started sharing about her family. Her parents didn't raise her, and all her siblings have died. She has one cousin she rarely sees. Most of her friends live in the north, where she used to live.
Although she doesn't have a blood family anymore, we have become each other's family. When I gave birth to my daughter, our family grew.
My daughter was born in 2023, and Charlette loves when I bring her to visit. She has taken on a grandmother role.
She doesn't have kids, so I celebrated her birthday
Charlette has told me she chose not to have kids because she didn't think she'd be a good mom due to the fact that her own mother didn't raise her. But I always tell her she would have been a perfect mom, as evidenced by how she treats me and my daughter.
My daughter's dad joked with me that I'm obsessed with Charlette. When I told Charlette, we laughed about it, saying he was just jealous because I was always at her house.
Since knowing Charlette, I've always taken cupcakes and sang "Happy Birthday" to her on her special day. But in April, she turned 80 and I wanted to make a big deal of it.
She'd told me that when she was married to her second husband, she would go to Vegas to have a fun time gambling. So, for her 80th birthday, I proposed taking her to a local casino. She said she'd go and had her outfit picked out the day before our date.
We had dinner and drinks at the casino's restaurant and then played on the slot machines.
She loved it, and said it brought back great memories of Vegas. The next day, she wrote me a card with a long message telling me how much she appreciated me taking her out. She went on to talk about it for weeks.
I posted a video on TikTok about her 80th birthday, not thinking much of it. When I woke up, I found that so many people had liked and commented. I think people just loved seeing an older person being remembered because they are so often forgotten.
Even after hours of sitting in her apartment, Charlette doesn't want me to leave. She loves the company. She makes sure to tell me to call her the next day. I love being able to cure her loneliness.
But my friendship with Charlette has been so good for me too. Her wisdom has been such a help to me over the years. She's taught me practical stuff but been someone I can get advice from too. I can genuinely call her my friend, even though she is decades older than I am.
Democratic megadonors like Netflix cofounder Reed Hastings (left) and Abigail Disney are pressuring President Joe Biden to drop out.
Getty Images
A growing list of wealthy Democrats are using their checkbooks to pressure Biden to drop out.
Others, such as Netflix cofounder Reed Hastings, simply no longer support Biden.
The donor uprising adds further obstacles to Biden hanging on after his disastrous debate performance.
Some of the Democratic Party's biggest donors are pressuring President Joe Biden to step aside.
Some on this growing list of Hollywood titans, powerful heirs, and staunch Democratic Party supporters are pledging to cut off their support until Biden drops out.
Others are so angry about the president's standing after his disastrous debate performance that they have vowed to cut off all Democrats.
So far, only two congressional Democrats have called on Biden to drop out. The combined weight of the party's monied class could prove too much to bear.
Already, former President Donald Trump has erased Biden's cash advantage after a flood of donations spurred by Trump's felony conviction. Biden and his allies simply can't afford to lose much other ground.
Here's the list of donors who are calling for Biden to step aside
Reed Hastings
Netflix cofounder Reed Hastings is one of the biggest names to call on Biden to step aside.
Ore Huiying / Getty
Netflix co-founder Reed Hastings is one of the biggest megadonors to join the chorus calling Biden to step aside. Hastings told The New York Times the president needs to bow out "to allow a vigorous Democratic leader to beat Trump and keep us safe and prosperous."
According to The Times, Hastings and his wife, Patty Quillin, have given over $20 million to various Democratic causes in recent years. Last summer, Hastings gave $100,000 to the Biden Victory Fund, a joint committee that includes Biden's reelection, the Democratic National Committee, and state Democratic Parties.
Abigail Disney
Abigail Disney, an heir to a cofounder of the entertainment giant, has pledged to stop donation to all Democrats until Biden steps aside.
Tasos Katopodis
Abigail Disney, daughter of Roy O. Disney, the co-founder of the entertainment giant, told CNBC that she would cut off donations to Democrats entirely until Biden steps aside.
"Biden is a good man and has served his country admirably, but the stakes are far too high," Disney said. "If Biden does not step down, the Democrats will lose. Of that, I am absolutely certain. The consequences for the loss will be genuinely dire."
Barry Diller
Legendary Hollywood executive Barry Diller gave a short statement when asked about his support of Biden.
Michael Loccisano/Getty Images for Semafor
IAC Chairman Barry Diller told journalist Matthew Frank that he, too, is done with Biden.
"No," Diller told Frank's newsletter, the Ankler, when asked if he still supported the president.
Diller has already given the max $6,600 contribution to Biden. He also gave a $100,000 donation to the Biden Victory Fund last year.
Damon Lindelof
Damon Lindelof is calling for a "DEMbargo" until Biden steps aside.
Reuters/Mario Anzuoni
Damon Lindelof, "Lost creator" and legendary showrunner, wrote a column urging fellow donors to stage a "DEMbargo" and cut off all Democrats until Biden steps aside.
"When a country is not behaving how we want them to, we apply harsh economic sanctions. It's a give and take — Short term hurt for long term healing," Lindelof wrote in his Deadline column. "Is it misguided to punish the entire team for the stubbornness of the pitcher? Maybe. But it's also common sense that if he stays in, they will also lose. A rising tide lifts all boats. A falling Biden sinks them."
Gideon Stein
Gideon Stein (seen here in 2015) has said his family will pause $3.5 million in donations related to the presidential election until Biden drops out.
Michael Kovac/Getty Images for Vanity Fair
Gideon Stein, a donor and philanthropist whose late father founded the influential liberal donor group the Democracy Alliance, told The Times that his family is withholding $3.5 million to groups involved in the presidential race unless Biden steps aside.
"[A] new ticket is in the best interest of defeating Donald Trump," Stein told The Times.
Drake and Kendrick Lamar have exchanged nine diss tracks since "Like That" dropped in March.
Hip-hop writers and critics favor Lamar in the feud, praising his songs as more persuasive.
Most recently, Lamar released a music video for "Not Like Us" that seemed to cement his victory.
Drake and Kendrick Lamar were once considered collaborators, perhaps even friends.
Both rappers lent features to the other's 2011 albums ("Take Care" and "good kid, m.A.A.d city," respectively) and even teamed up with A$AP Rocky for the 2012 hit "F**kin' Problems."
Over the years, however, Drake and Lamar came to represent very different versions of hip-hop greatness: the former is a commercial juggernaut, racking up No. 1 albums and breaking chart records set by The Beatles, while the latter is a Grammy darling and acclaimed lyricist who's won a Pulitzer Prize.
Today, their separation is more apparent than ever: Drake and Lamar have become all-out foes.
In March, the Compton rapper used one simple line to reheat their long-simmering beef: "Motherfuck the big three, it's just big me."
The avowal appeared in Lamar's guest verse for "Like That," the sixth track on Future and Metro Boomin's collaborative album "We Don't Trust You."
"Love when they argue the hardest MC / Is it K-Dot? Is it Aubrey? Or me? / We the big three like we started a league," Cole rapped, referencing Lamar's nickname "K-Dot" and Drake's birth name, Aubrey Graham.
In the former, Drake mocks Lamar's height with a reference to his latest Grammy-winning album, "Mr. Morale & the Big Steppers." ("How the fuck you big steppin' with a size-seven men's on?") The latter track opens with AI-generated advice from Tupac Shakur, whom Lamar has frequently been compared to. This strategy backfired, drawing criticism and legal threats from Shakur's estate; Drake removed the song from his social media.
Lamar finally responded after 11 days of silence, dropping an explicitly anti-Drake diss called "Euphoria."
The song contains layered insults about his rival's roots ("I'd rather do that than let a Canadian n**** make Pac turn in his grave"), Drake's track record as a dad ("I got a son to raise, but I can see you don't know nothin' 'bout that"), and long-stewing plastic surgery rumors ("Tell 'em where you get your abs from").
The drama didn't stop there. Less than 72 hours later, Lamar released "6:16 in LA," which sparked another response from Drake ("Family Matters"), which provoked two more jabs from Lamar ("Meet the Grahams" and "Not Like Us"), which finally led Drake to address criticism head-on ("The Heart Part 6").
As of writing, the rappers have exchanged a total of nine diss tracks (including "Like That") in a matter of weeks. It's the latest in a long, storied history of rap feuds, but even so, there's a lot to unpack here.
We broke down the key takeaways from hip-hop writers and culture critics.
After 'Euphoria,' critics said Lamar took round one
The unbridled energy of "Euphoria" has been widely praised by critics, even though Lamar's rebuttal came later than fans expected.
"Drake's 'Push Ups' and 'Taylor Made Freestyle' were solid efforts, but for my money, they didn't hit as hard as the 'Like That' verse or 'Euphoria,'" Angel Diaz wrote for Billboard. "This response was well worth the wait."
Similarly, music journalist Sowmya Krishnamurthy commended Lamar's patience, writing on Medium, "There's a reason that he's known as hip-hop's reigning boogeyman."
"What's so great about 'Euphoria' is that it's six minutes and 24 seconds of rapping. Straight bars," Krishnamurthy wrote, comparing Lamar's "vicious" lyrical skill to Drake's "penchant for social media trolling and gimmicks."
"This is a rap battle," Krishnamurthy added. "The victor needs to showcase actual skill, wit, wordplay, and flow in order to take it."
In a track review for Pitchfork, Alphonse Pierre argued that Lamar's humor and passionate delivery help to sell the song — despite its underwhelming production and its lack of a "knockout blow."
"He sounds like he's been waiting years for this moment. 'I hate the way that you walk, the way that you talk / I hate the way that you dress,' he raps; cliché, but it works because he sounds like he really means it," Pierre wrote.
Lamar declared, 'I'm the biggest hater,' and people are loving it
By contrast, "Euphoria" isn't especially specific or revelatory. Instead, what delighted critics is the sheer level of contempt that Lamar has been harboring for the Canadian chart-topper.
"This ain't been about critics, not about gimmicks, not about who the greatest / It's always been about love and hate, now let me say I'm the biggest hater," Lamar raps.
The lyric is probably a reference to a Breakfast Club interview with DMX in 2012 in which the rapper declared, "I don't like anything about Drake. I don't like his fucking voice. I don't like the shit he talks about. I don't like his face. I don't like the way he walks, nothing."
Pop culture writer Hunter Harris applauded Lamar's catty "war cry" in her newsletter "Hung Up," noting, "The meanest thing you can possibly do is to hate someone just because."
Zoe Guy echoed this sentiment in an article for Vulture, saluting Lamar for his "blatant honesty."
"We can only hope Lamar never relinquishes the hate in his heart, because we could go for another fiery verse or two," Guy wrote.
Music journalist Andre Gee agreed, contending that Lamar didn't need a big reveal or accusation for the song to land — he only needed to be energized by his own personal disdain.
"Some diss songs make listeners perceive an artist differently, but other disses say things people are already thinking in ways that they can't convey," Gee wrote for Rolling Stone. "The Cardo and Kyuro-produced 'Euphoria' is the latter. Kendrick doesn't say many new things, but the way he lobs his insults makes it a haymaker."
Social media users also put Lamar in the lead
Producer and DJ Marseel said on X that Drake "lost the culture" after the "Euphoria" drop, while culture critic Shamira Ibrahim wrote, "I'm actually shook at how disgusted Kendrick is with Drake."
The rapper and singer Tiger Goods celebrated Lamar's Gemini spirit, writing, "Real haters are detailed."
"Drake is responding because he has to," wrote Todd in the Shadows, a popular YouTube music reviewer. "Kendrick is doing this because he actively dislikes Drake."
Kendrick is truly a Gemini because air signs don’t hate “you” we hate every single tiny thing that adds up to the loser you are and will give you an itemized list of reasons. Real haters are detailed.
I'll give credit to Drake that he managed to get any shots off at all, but he is at a serious disadvantage in that 1) Kendrick has way less vulnerabilities than Drake does and 2) Drake is responding because he has to, Kendrick is doing this because he actively dislikes Drake
Plenty of others noted Lamar's solo writing credit for "Euphoria," compared to three writing credits for Drake's "Push Ups," citing this as evidence of Lamar's superiority. (Drake has long been accused of using ghostwriters for his hits, a claim that Lamar has now repeated.)
"Kendrick absolutely ethered Drake," culture critic Ira Madison III wrote on X. "But as the male Taylor Swift, he is Teflon. His career will be just fine even if people hate him."
Critics praised Drake's rapping on 'Family Matters,' but Lamar's quick comeback gave him the upper hand again
Three days after Lamar released "Euphoria," Drake hit back with "Family Matters," a seven-minute song paired with a music video.
Drake begins the song with a disclaimer: "I was really, really tryna keep it PG." Then he goes after Lamar's family, accusing his opponent of infidelity and abuse: "They hired a crisis management team / To clean up the fact that you beat on your queen." (Lamar seemed to admit to having affairs in his latest album, "Mr. Morale," but as of writing, the domestic violence allegations are unsubstantiated.)
Drake also claims that one of Lamar's children with his fiancée, Whitney Alford, was actually fathered by Lamar's manager, Dave Free.
Journalists called the song "eviscerating" and "really real." Several opined that Drake rose to Lamar's challenge and delivered an impressive performance.
"In a vacuum, this song would be one of the strongest diss records of all time," David Dennis Jr. wrote for Andscape. "'Family Matters' is some of the best rapping Drake's done in his career. He knew he was up against the premier lyricist of our era, and he stepped up tremendously."
Throughout the song, Lamar addresses Drake's 6-year-old son ("Dear Adonis, I'm sorry that man is your father"), his mom ("Sandra, sit down, what I'm about to say is heavy, now listen / Your son's a sick man with sick thoughts"), his dad ("You raised a horrible fucking person, the nerve of you, Dennis"), and a mysterious 11-year-old daughter that he alleges Drake is hiding. (Drake denied this final point via Instagram.)
The brutal tone of the track, paired with the speed of its delivery, quickly returned the edge to Lamar.
As Charles Holmes wrote for The Ringer, "The quality of the most recent diss tracks became irrelevant the minute Kendrick outmaneuvered Drake by releasing 'Meet the Grahams' about an hour after 'Family Matters' dropped."
"A fire can melt snow, but it's got no chance against an avalanche. That's effectively what it felt like watching 'Family Matters' go up against this Kendrick onslaught," Justin Sayles wrote. "This thing is over. Kendrick's legacy is secure. The only question now is what happens to Drake's."
Drake shot back with 'The Heart Part 6,' but it didn't sway public opinion in his favor
On Sunday night, Drake released another diss track, named after Lamar's Grammy-winning single "The Heart Part 5."
Drake uses the song to address Lamar's accusations of pedophilia, explicitly denying any inappropriate behavior. He even name-drops "Stranger Things" actor Millie Bobby Brown, whom Drake befriended when she was 14 years old, though Lamar has never mentioned her.
"Just for clarity, I feel disgusted, I'm too respected / If I was fucking young girls, I promise I'd have been arrested," Drake raps. "I'm way too famous for this shit you just suggested."
The Toronto native also claims that his own team leaked false rumors of a secret daughter to bait Lamar: "We plotted for a week and then we fed you the information," he raps. "You gotta learn to fact-check things and be less impatient."
In the spoken-word outro, Drake calls Lamar a liar and implies that he's done with their back-and-forth.
However, spectators online don't seem impressed with Drake's defensive maneuver. Some have compared "The Heart Part 6" to a scene from "It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia," in which a character says, "There is no quicker way for people to think that you are 'diddling kids' than by writing a song about it."
Many also noted that Drake's core argument — that he's "too famous" to get away with criminal behavior — contradicts well-documented evidence that fame and wealth can help people evade consequences.
"Drake's argument against the pedophilia allegations is 'if I was really fucking young girls I promise I'd have been arrested' UHHH WHAT??? Rich famous men don't get away with such crimes everyday???" lawyer and political commentator Olayemi Olurin wrote on X.
"this Epstein angle was the shit I expected"
Hey Drake, why do you expect people to call you a pedophile?
Pitchfork contributor Evan Rytlewski wrote on X, "This is one of the worst songs I've ever heard, extremely ugly shit." Krishnamurthy opined that Drake's "credibility and integrity need work," whether or not Lamar's accusations are true.
"He sounds beaten-down and cold, spending nearly six minutes calling Kendrick a bad investigative journalist, attempting to mock the molestation story in Kendrick's 'Mother I Sober,' and disputing claims that he's had relationships with underage girls in the worst way possible," Pierre wrote for Pitchfork. "It's a miserable song. He sounds washed and exiled."
"Drake and Kendrick don't have the politics to be doing all this," Holmes wrote. "As with most hip-hop beefs, we've ended up where we were always destined to — men using women, wives, baby mothers, parents, and children in increasingly gross and depraved ways to satisfy their rabid egos."
Lamar seemed to cement his victory with a Juneteenth concert and a music video for 'Not Like Us'
"Not Like Us" debuted at No. 1 on the Billboard Hot 100, while "Family Matters" debuted at No. 7 — a devastating blow to Drake, whose biggest leg up on Lamar was thought to be his commercial appeal.
Lamar flexed the popularity of his diss tracks during a one-night-only Juneteenth concert in Inglewood, California, dubbed "The Pop Out: Ken and Friends," which he opened with "Euphoria."
To close the show, Lamar performed "Not Like Us" five times in a row — six including an instrumental-only version. He was joined onstage by a huge array of guests, including West Coast rappers, athletes, and dancers. "This is unity at its finest," Lamar told the crowd.
The event was widely celebrated as Lamar's victory lap, cementing his support from both fans and members of the hip-hop community. According to NBC News, "SIX TIMES" began trending on X shortly after the concert ended.
"It was hard to overlook the fact that the thing unifying the coast in this moment was not love but hate, and Kendrick, the self-proclaimed biggest Drake hater, was primarily operating in his capacity as speaker for the culture in his personal war with the Toronto high roller," Sheldon Pearce wrote for NPR. "If the matter wasn't settled before, then it certainly is now."
In one scene, Lamar repeatedly whacks an owl-shaped piñata while a disclaimer flashes across the screen: "NO OVHOES WERE HARMED DURING THE MAKING OF THIS VIDEO." Of course, the logo for Drake's brand, October's Very Own, is an owl.
The video ends with Lamar leaving an owl trapped in a birdcage.
The visual also serves as an indirect rebuttal to Drake's claims about Lamar's home life. Lamar's fiancée and their two children make a rare appearance, dancing along to "Not Like Us" and standing together as a family, both literally and symbolically.
The drivers Charles Leclerc and Carlos Sainz of Ferrari celebrate on the podium after the 2024 Monaco Grand Prix.
NurPhoto/Getty Images
Since 2021, Formula 1 races have used Ferrari Trento sparkling wine for podium celebrations.
The tradition of rewarding winners with bubbly at F1 races dates back to the 1950 French Grand Prix.
Ferrari Trento said it had nearly tripled its US sales since the start of its F1 partnership.
This article is part of "Behind the Wheel," a series about the highly competitive and high-tech world of Formula 1.
It's an iconic moment of a Formula 1 race: the uproarious podium celebration, where the top three drivers spray each other with bubbly as the prelude to Georges Bizet's opera "Carmen" plays in the background.
Since 2021, F1 drivers technically haven't been celebrating with Champagne. They've been spraying and imbibing sparkling wine produced by the Italian company Ferrari Trento (no relation to the Ferrari car manufacturer). And with a calendar spanning 24 races across five continents, Formula 1 has led to enormous brand exposure for the small winery in northern Italy.
"For us, it has been a dream come true," said Matteo Lunelli, the president and CEO of Ferrari Trento. "Our brand awareness is growing, especially in the United States, where Formula 1 is rising enormously in relevance and popularity."
A 70-year tradition
The tradition of awarding winners with Champagne at Formula 1 races dates back to 1950, when the Argentine driver Juan Manuel Fangio received a large bottle of Moët & Chandon after winning the French Grand Prix.
But the act of spraying Champagne can be traced back to 1966, at the famed French endurance race 24 Hours of Le Mans, when the Swiss driver Jo Siffert accidentally popped the cork on his bottle, spraying a few unsuspecting spectators. The next year, the American racer Dan Gurney one-upped Siffert, intentionally shaking up his bottle of Moët & Chandon and drenching everyone around him.
Soon enough, that practice became standard at Formula 1 races, resulting in the spectacle seen today.
Worldwide exposure for F1's bubbly partners
Over the years, Formula 1 has partnered with a variety of Champagne companies for its podium celebrations, including Moët & Chandon, G.H. Mumm, and Champagne Carbon. In 2021, when the racing series began its partnership with Ferrari Trento, it represented the first time a non-French sparkling wine had been used.
"Traditionally, the sport was always linked to Champagne," Lunelli said. "Choosing us was a big step and innovation for them."
Since then, Ferrari Trento has been featured prominently on the podium during each Grand Prix. Viewers can even watch a "bottle cam" showing drivers dousing each other in sparkling wine. Some drivers even have unique ways of drinking it.
The Formula 1 driver Daniel Ricciardo drinking bubbly from a shoe.
Reuters/Aly Song
This exposure is what makes the sponsorship deal so coveted.
"It's a global sport, so it's more eyes, it's emotions, and it's a story," said Theresa Sanchez, a codirector of the wine-marketing program at the University of California, Davis. "Everyone wants to leave these events telling a story, and if your wine brand can be part of that story during the celebration, it's successful."
For Ferrari Trento, the deal has been buoyed by the recent growth of Formula 1, thanks in part to the success of the Netflix docuseries "Drive to Survive."
"We nearly tripled our sales in the US since the start of the partnership," Lunelli said. "We had to move allocation of wine from the local Italian market to export sales, which is a strategic decision for us that we want to continue. Our goal is really to increase our export sales and make Ferrari Trento more and more international."
Trial rules
Outside of the podium celebration, Ferrari Trento is served throughout each Formula 1 race weekend. Christian Miller, another codirector of the UC Davis wine-marketing program, argued that this is the most important part of the sponsorship.
Miller, who's also the research director of Wine Market Council, alluded to consumer research suggesting that "trial rules," meaning that providing opportunities for people to taste a wine benefits wine companies more so than other tactics.
As Formula 1 continues to rise in popularity — with new US races in Miami and Las Vegas only adding to the series' pomp and circumstance — Ferrari Trento gets more opportunities to offer its wine to customers.
"Those two Grands Prix created a whole weekend of events, celebrations, and parties," Lunelli said.
Lunelli said that during the week of the 2024 Miami Grand Prix, close to 20,000 bottles of Ferrari Trento were served. During the Las Vegas race last fall, an estimated 40,000 bottles were uncorked.
"It was a fantastic opportunity to present ourselves to new customers," Lunelli said.
A bold decision
When Ferrari Trento started its partnership with Formula 1 in 2021, hosting these events wasn't necessarily a sure thing.
"We finalized our agreement at the beginning of 2021 when we were still in lockdown," Lunelli said. At the time, Formula 1 races were happening at largely empty racetracks without fans.
"The starting point of our partnership demonstrated from us a strong willingness to do it — and a little bit of courage," Lunelli said. "It turned out to be a very positive decision."
Max Verstappen and Lewis Hamilton celebrate on the podium with Ferrari Trento sparkling wine in 2021.
Yuri Kochetkov – Pool/Getty Images
The relationship between sports and wine seems poised for continued growth. In addition to Formula 1's sponsorship, the NFL, the NBA, and MLB have launched wine partnerships in recent years.
Sanchez described these partnerships as much needed in the wine industry as vineyards look for new customers in different demographics.
"We need to go to the consumer," she said. "It's getting more expensive to bring consumers to the tasting room, so you have to meet people where they're at, where they're having fun. It's simply smart for wine brands."
Criterion Collection, United Artists, LD Entertainment, Abanti Chowdhury/BI
Gina Gershon is a bit of an enigma — literally.
When she appears on Zoom for our interview, she's shrouded in darkness. "It looks like I'm in the witness protection program," she jokes. It's not clear where Gershon is calling in from, though it seems like it may be from her home, given her repeated interjections of "Hey, stop that!" to someone — maybe her beloved cat, Louie? — off-camera.
For someone who's been working consistently for decades since breaking through with a bit part in 1986's "Pretty in Pink,"remarkably little is known about her private life. And even more remarkably, people don't seem to pester her too often about stuff like where she lives, whether she's married, or if she has kids.
Gershon has become one of the rare actors — and the even rarer female actors — afforded the opportunity to vanish into her roles. It's exactly the career she always wanted, but not necessarily what everyone else planned for her.
After appearing in Paul Verhoeven's critically panned 1995 movie "Showgirls," which has since become a camp classic, Gershon parted ways with her agents when they disagreed with her decision to take the role of Corky, a lesbian ex-con seduced by Jennifer Tilly's femme mafioso girlfriend Violet in "Bound," the Wachowskis' 1996 directorial debut.
"Everyone at that moment, they wanted me to be in a big studio film and to position me more as a big Hollywood star and all that," Gershon recalls. "I just wanted a script and a part to show and to really act in something I was really passionate about."
For the latest interview in Business Insider's "Role Play" series, Gershon looks back on working with the Wachowskis, inadvertently becoming a queer icon, and being typecast as "motorcycle-riding, real tough women murdering men."
On defying her agents to star in 'Bound' and finding Corky's look in San Francisco lesbian bars
Jennifer Tilly and Gina Gershon in "Bound."
The Criterion Collection
Lana and Lilly Wachowski have talked about how they struggled to cast Violet and Corky in 'Bound.' Were you hesitant at all to take on the role?
I was hesitant to take on any role coming off of "Showgirls," just because, honestly, I was pretty burnt out. It was a very intense shoot, as you can imagine. I happened to have read the Wachowskis' script, "Assassins," and I really wanted to do that script. And for whatever reason, no one would see me for it.
When the script for "Bound" was sent to us, my agents were pretty clear saying, "Listen, you are not doing this movie. It's a lesbian, and you just played a lesbian." I'm like, "Well, I just played a bisexual person," as we were saying in the day. I said, "That's very different. And who cares? I want to read the script just because I liked those writers."
My agents were like, "Well, it's unknown filmmakers. They've never directed before." And I remember saying, "These unknown filmmakers are geniuses. They're visionaries. They're brilliant. I want to work with them."
Is it true that you fired your agents over them not wanting you to be in the movie?
I mean, "fire" is a harsh word. They said to me very clearly, "We can't represent you if you do this movie. We have other plans for you."
I was anxious to show that I was a pretty serious actress. When I read ["Bound"], A, I had never read women's parts like this. And B, the idea of cutting off my hair, cutting off my nails, taking off 20 pounds of this makeup that I've been wearing for months and months… it was 180 degrees from what I had just played. And I just thought, "Wow, the woman gets the girl. She gets the money. She screws over the mob."
I can't remember if she was on the set or not. She certainly wasn't there with me and Jennifer [Tilly]. I think the Wachowskis were quite clever in that they brought on Susie as they were writing the script, because she was the sexpert in lesbian love, and she's known for that.
She wasn't in the traditional sense what an intimacy coordinator is. She wasn't there saying, "Do you feel comfortable with this? Do you feel safe? Move this way."
My real direct dealings with Susie were when I was trying to find my look. Coming in, I was so femme — my hair, and my body was like a dancer's body, and I really had to transform myself into the more masculine side of myself, where I'd really been exploiting the feminine side with "Showgirls." So they were like, "Talk to Susie."
I flew to San Francisco to have a night on the town with her, and I said, "Take me to these places. I want to find my look. Take me to these lesbian bars." Although when I got there, I can't remember exactly why, but for some reason, she couldn't go out that night. She goes, "So, I'm just going to point you in the right direction." And I remember going, "Wait, you're kidding, right? I'm going to all these places by myself?"
But it turned out to be one of those kind of after-hours nights, and one thing led to the other. It was a wild experience, but I came back and I had my Corky. Let's just leave it at that.
On her 'Showgirls' PTSD and why she's come around on the movie
Gina Gershon in "Showgirls."
United Artists
You've spoken a lot about "Showgirls" and defended it in recent years. But did you ever fear its reception would derail your career the way that it derailed Elizabeth Berkley's?
I had that fear I think from day one.
I just watched it again. A friend of mine, Lili Anolik, who is a great journalist and a writer herself, she's like, "You need to come and see this movie and see why people like it." I've just had PTSD with it the whole time, and for several reasons. And seeing it now, I understand it on a bigger level. I can understand why people consciously or unconsciously like it so much.
What ["Showgirls" director] Paul [Verhoeven] was trying to do was just revealing the ugliest side of the American dream. And when you're an actress and you're inside of it, all I kept thinking was like, "Oh, my God, I want to do Chekhov. I want to do the Greeks. How did I get here?"
And it was really my biggest part in my career. I'd been doing theater, I'd been doing independent films, but I also knew, "Wow, I better be really good in this, or else I'm done." And so I worked on it like any part. And I loved the part when I first read the script. I just stuck to doing the best job I could acting it, because I certainly wasn't directing it, and I wasn't producing it.
As a whole, I really appreciate it in the bigger picture now of what he was trying to do.
Between "Showgirls" and "Bound," how do you feel about being a queer icon?
I think it's pretty awesome. I love it. So many women and girls have come up to me, telling me how [my movies] helped them accept who they were and how it helped them come out because they hadn't seen that represented in a film before, and that makes me feel really great.
On the flip side, after having those two roles back to back, did you have any issues with being typecast?
I definitely would get a lot of these motorcycle-riding, real tough women murdering men. That's come up quite a bit in my career. Ironically enough, right now another movie of mine is being re-released from 20 years ago, "Prey for Rock & Roll" — where, by the way, I have another super hot girlfriend in that.
But for some reason, the best parts I've been offered, they've happened to be lesbian women. Maybe the parts seem better to me!
That being said, to me, with "Bound," it wasn't like, "Oh, I'm playing a lesbian." That movie was always about trust. The big themes in that were how do you trust someone again when you've been really screwed over in the past? And ultimately, that's what Corky and Violet have.
On the one scene she never wants to rewatch and why she thought she'd be written out of 'Face/Off'
Gina Gershon and Matthew McConaughey in "Killer Joe."
LD Entertainment
Another one of my favorite more recent roles of yours was in "Killer Joe." You have that one really memorable scene in which Matthew McConaughey's character forces your character Sharla to fellate a fried chicken leg. What was it like filming that moment?
Years before that movie, the script came to me as a play. And I didn't know ["Killer Joe" playwright] Tracy Letts then, I didn't know his work.
I was into the whole thing, and when I got to that chicken bone scene, I really thought, "Wow, I don't know if I could do this eight times a week." I'm pretty tough, but that scene really was like, "Wow." And everyone's like, "No, it's going to be really funny!"
So, when the movie version came up, I finally got to meet [director] William Friedkin, who I was already such a huge fan of. I mean, I think I've seen "The Exorcist" maybe at least 100 times.
Billy wasn't a guy that says, "Hey, we're going to do a zillion takes." If you ask for take two, he's like, "Why?"
But for that particular scene, I remember saying to Billy and to Matthew, "You know what? I don't want to talk about it. I don't want to think about it. We definitely got one big take on this and let's just do it." I didn't want to get into my head because if I thought about it, I don't know. It's such an intense, gnarly scene.
To this day, the movie is so compelling and it's so well done, I feel myself getting nauseous as that scene is coming up. And it's the only scene I've ever done in my entire career where I literally have to look away and go, "Is it over?"
Luckily, Matthew and I work really well together, and there was obviously a lot of trust between us. And he and I never even talked about it. We never discussed it until a year and a half later. We saw each other at a party. We just kind of looked at each other and he was like, "We really did that scene." I said, "Yeah, we sure did." And we finally talked about it, but I didn't want to think about it, to be honest.
Another one of your iconic cult classic roles is in "Face/Off." Is it true that you and Nicolas Cage knew each other in high school before working on that?
We never really hung out, but we were in the same high school, so we knew of each other for sure.
What was it like working on "Face/Off" together?
Nicolas is, as he is so often, just completely brilliant. I was so excited to be working with John Woo… just watching John Woo work.
Originally I kept thinking my part was going to get cut out or something. I mean, it wasn't integral to the story. And so I would just come up with scenes like, "Hey, what about this? What about that?"
It was your idea to do the sibling kiss, right? What was behind that choice?
I think that was me and Nick Cassavetes. Just an incestuous sort of love for each other. [Laughs]
I kept going into Nick Cassavetes' room trying to work on different bits, saying, "Hey, what about this?" Like I was never supposed to kick the guy when I was leaving with the kid, and I kept saying to John Woo, "I'm in a John Woo movie. Let me do stunts. I could do stunts! I'm really into it."
My one idea that didn't fly — and to this day I still wish we had done it — I really love the idea of showing up with a shaved head, since Nick Cassavetes had the shaved head. And in certain cultures, you shave your head when you're in mourning. I wanted to show up with a shaved head, which I thought was so exciting.
That definitely did not fly. Usually, I'd say to John, "What about this?" And he'd be like, "Oh, yeah, yeah.' But I told him this, and he went, "What? No."
I'm still standing behind it! I still believe it's a great idea. The producers, I remember they didn't seem to be so keen.
I thought it really worked, but I wasn't directing it, so I didn't get to do it. I was just the hired hand. I had to listen to Mr. John Woo on that one.
I'm excited to see you in "Borderlands" coming up. What was it like working on a set of that scale?
Complete bonkersville. It's insane. It's just stupid, fun, crazy, out there. You feel like you're a bit in a video game. I'm happy to have been a part of it. I wish I had more to do in it. I wish I could have been working there all the time, but I really love my time that I was there.
And working with Cate Blanchett, she's just a dream. I love her so much. And Jamie Lee Curtis and Kevin Hart. I mean, the cast is insane. And it was really special just because we were all in lockdown, and just to be able to enter a new world, even though Pandora's a bit of a shithole and so crazy, it was just nice to be locked down with such a great group of people.
I've never done a Marvel movie. I've never done these big, crazy movies. To be really dressed up in these outfits and entering a whole other world was just a blast.
Totally different experience from things like "Bound" and "Showgirls."
The film is nuts. It's not like anything I've done, so I'm excited about it.
This interview has been edited and condensed for clarity.